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Brand the Interpreter
What if La Malinche—the Indigenous woman who famously served as interpreter and advisor to Hernán Cortés during the Spanish conquest of Mexico—could share her stories? Imagine the insights and experiences she could offer about the power of language and navigating the complexities of two worlds. That’s the spirit behind the Brand the Interpreter Podcast!
Hosted by Mireya Pérez, an interpreter and personal brand advocate, this podcast gives today’s interpreters a platform to share their own fascinating stories, challenges, and triumphs. Each episode pulls back the curtain on the world of interpreting, from navigating high-stakes conversations to facilitating cross-cultural understanding, offering listeners a glimpse into the lives of the professionals who bring meaning across languages.
Whether you’re an interpreter, a bilingual professional, or simply curious about the magic that happens behind the scenes, Brand the Interpreter immerses you in the stories of language professionals making an impact every day. It’s more than just a podcast—it’s a celebration of language, connection, and the vital human element that makes communication possible.
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Brand the Interpreter
The Intricacies of Implementing Language Access in Schools with Prof. Bruce Adelson
Prepare for an intellectual journey with Professor Bruce Adelson, a seasoned expert in language services and non-discrimination law enforcement, as we passionately dissect the intricate world of language access in education. Are you aware of the crucial role the Department of Justice plays in implementing non-discrimination laws? Buckle up as we unfold this and more, enlightening you about the potential pitfalls of solely depending on bilingual staff for language access in schools. Moreover, we'll address the glaring need for more awareness among school administrators about language access requirements, all while drawing from Professor Adelson's rich experience as a keynote speaker and trainer.
Now, have you ever pondered about the impact of language access on a child's education and the legal implications surrounding it? This episode is your golden ticket to a better understanding of these issues, guided by none other than Professor Adelson himself. We delve into the necessity of empathy towards those with language barriers and how it facilitates a more comprehensive understanding of language access. Furthermore, we don't shy away from discussing the indispensable role of human interpreters in education, despite the technological strides made by AI. We'll also link the essential aspect of federal funding in public education to language access, leaving no stone unturned.
As we draw to a close, we explore the limitations and risks associated with using AI for language access services. An intriguing anecdote about a lawyer who misused AI serves as a cautionary tale, underscoring the need for careful deployment of AI in language access. We turn the spotlight onto Professor Adelson's use of LinkedIn as a knowledge-sharing platform for these critical topics. So, gear yourself for a whirlwind of insights and revelations that are sure to enrich your understanding of the world of language services. Strap in and enjoy the ride!
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Resources Mentioned:
LEP.org
Information for Limited English Proficient (LEP) Parents and Guardians and
for Schools and School Districts that Communicate with Them
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👉 Orange County Department of Education 7th Annual Interpreters and Translators Conference - September 29th and 30th - at the Hilton Orange County/Costa Mesa in Costa Mesa, California
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Are you an independent interpreter or translator wishing to promote your product, training or service that is specifically targeted for language professionals and have been unsure where to market it? Consider an ad on Brand the Interpreter To find out more about how to promote your product, training or service specifically for language professionals. On the Brand the Interpreter podcast. Check out the episode notes. Hello, language professionals from around the world, welcome back if you are a returning listener and if you're new to this space. Thank you for joining us and I really truly hope that you stick around for a while. Today I'm happy to bring you all Mr Bruce Adelson Now. If you are unfamiliar with who Mr Bruce L Adelson is, allow me to introduce him to you all.
Speaker 1:Bruce L Adelson is CEO of Federal Compliance Consulting LLC. He is a former US Department of Justice Senior Trial Attorney. During Bruce's federal career, he was responsible for enforcing many federal laws, including the Americans with Disabilities Act, voting Rights Act and Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Professor Adelson is an instructor of family medicine at Georgetown University School of Medicine and adjunct professor of law at University of Pittsburgh School of Law. He teaches implicit bias in healthcare, civil rights, cultural awareness and organizational culture. He has been a guest speaker at Harvard, cornell and Auburn universities, the John Hopkins University School of Public Health, university of Michigan School of Law and University of Baltimore School of Law. He is the Americans with Disabilities Act consultant to the Idaho Supreme Court and the New Mexico Administrative Office of the Courts.
Speaker 1:Professor Adelson has been the keynote speaker and trainer about the ADA, Title VI, affordable Care Act, hipaa, federal Compliance, implicit Bias, organizational Culture, federal Civil Rights Law and more for the National Conference of State Legislatures, national Association of State Election Directors, national Association of Counties, international Municipal Lawyers Association, kaiser Permanente, memorial Hermann Health System, memorial Health System, minnesota Hospital Consortium, university of Minnesota, minnesota Department of Health Services, washington Department of Children, youth and Families, region 5 Systems, vizian, southeast and Centaural Health System, just to name a few. And today I had the privilege and incredible opportunity to speak directly with Professor Adelson about topics such as the role of the Department of Justice or the DOJ in enforcing non-discrimination laws and language access, the risks of relying solely on bilingual staff for language access in schools, the lack of awareness and understanding of language access requirements among school administrators, the significance of federal funding for public education and its relation to language access, and the challenges faced by individuals responsible for language access in school districts. This and so much more. I hope you enjoy this episode and that you take advantage of some of the resources in the episode notes.
Speaker 1:So, without further ado, please welcome Professor Bruce Adelson to the show. Bruce, I am so excited to have you on the show today. Thank you so very much for being here.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it's my pleasure. I very much appreciate the invitation and it's always a pleasure to see you again.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Likewise, I think that it's definitely a conversation that I know I'm going to enjoy and hopefully, as is always the intention, that those that are listening to today's conversation will also not just enjoy but learn a couple of things during our conversation. That's always the intention.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Let's do it up. I'm ready to go.
Speaker 1:All right, let's get started with potentially a question that doesn't necessarily have to do with work or the profession or language access. But how about we get to know Bruce a little bit more and you take us back in time and just tell us where you grew up and what a fond childhood memory of yours is?
Speaker 2:Sure, well, I was born in the Bronx, new York City, and then my family eventually moved to Yonkers, new York, which is a suburb that actually borders the Bronx. I would say that among my most memorable, pleasant, wonderful experiences were just like growing up in the New York area. I remember when the first Chinese restaurant came to our neighborhood and I remember really getting deeply involved in pizza and bagels and just running the gamut. I had a wonderful time growing up in the New York area and I know that I'm often reminded that, depending on the circumstances of my conversation, that my New York accent tends to come out a little stronger than at other times. I really very much enjoyed New York and I enjoy still calling myself a New York.
Speaker 1:I love that one of your childhood memories, or fond childhood memories, involves food and pizza, and Chinese food?
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, we could do a whole podcast on that.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it, so talk to us. How did you end up? Are you still in New York, or how did you end up eventually getting out of New York? I?
Speaker 2:went. I left New York after I graduated from high school to go to college, and then I also did not go to law school in New York. I went to the University of Pittsburgh for law school. So I look at New York as giving me that foundation for moving forward in my life, and I now live in the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC, which I often describe as a great place to live and also not as intensely crowded as New York City is.
Speaker 1:I bet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a nice mixture. So I left New York to go to school and then to pursue my career.
Speaker 1:You grew up in an area that is known now I don't know if that specific area your neighborhood, but New York as basically another one of our country's melting pot in terms of cultures and people. Right, what was that like for you, if you recall, in terms of? I mean, we already know that the food situation was a variety of cultures, but what about the people situation for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great point. I think that New York is I don't want to say that it's unique, but certainly at the time that I grew up, the population of the United States was in the process of changing. That certainly was true in New York. But being exposed to people from different places, cultures, countries, who spoke different languages was a great opportunity for me, and I know that as I continued forward in my life and I met people from other parts of the country. Their reaction awful was, wait a minute, new York, you actually met people, were from this country and that country and spoke this language. So I and I studied language when I was in high school.
Speaker 2:My family was very linguistically oriented and I am familiar with very much something that I've studied on my own the immigrant, past, present and future of New York City. So I think to your point I think that's very well taken that there is a real difference in New York with the mix of people, cultures, languages, national origins and I use food as an example, because food is a great metaphor to describe the differences that we all have in the world but we all come together in one place. It's a place where that happens to have 8 million people, but perhaps that's what makes it so exciting.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's incredible. You just mentioned that you ended up going to school outside of New York. What was your focus growing up? What was your intention? Where were your aspirations in terms of those professional aspirations?
Speaker 2:Well, when I was in college, I was an international studies major. I studied three languages French, german and Arabic, studied international politics and international relations. It's something that I was always very much interested in. Initially I had the thought of having a career in international diplomacy, but I was influenced when I was in college to look at different alternatives and I decided that the alternative that suited me well was to go to law school. But my focus has always been international, whether it's traveling widely speaking different languages and my primary field of study in college. That's always been my focus.
Speaker 1:So give us an idea of basically how your trajectory, your professional trajectory, went once you started schooling and you made that realization or the decision that you're going to do law school, because you're sort of going to get us to the point of how you are so involved with the topic of language access. So for those that are listening that aren't familiar with Bruce, well, I don't know where you've been, by the way, if you don't know who Bruce Adelson is Thank you, yeah, so guide us through that trajectory, if you will.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, what's interesting about college was that really focusing on language. I took language. I took French and German at the beginning in high school, but college was a whole different level of language study and I thought that one of my aspirations in college was to take three languages at the same time. So when I was a junior in college, I took French, german, arabic same day. Classes were sequential, and I really love that because it was.
Speaker 2:You know, you change your focus. Obviously, each language is different and think about each language individually. Well, I'm taking Arabic, so I have to think about this and writing in a different way, remembering to start from the opposite side of the page. I love that. It was a great experience for me. And then also kind of kinds of ties into stories that I heard that when my family came to this country about 100 years ago and that my dad told me of language-based discrimination and being treated differently because of national origin. That was at a time where we did not have, as you know, the laws that we have today, so there was no public school language access or assistance, nothing even close to that, and I think that that and my work as a lawyer really dovetailed into my passion, my focus on discrimination and how people are treated differently because of who they are, how they speak, how they look, for example, and that's been something that I've been doing as a lawyer for decades and something that I will continue to do.
Speaker 1:Well, it would be one of the most memorable moments in your law career that you really think that solidified the work that you were doing, do you?
Speaker 2:recall. Yeah, you know. It's funny that you mentioned that because when you, as soon as you said that, the particular story popped into my head. That is my favorite.
Speaker 2:When I was with the Justice Department, I worked with a lot of Native American communities and tribal governments, and one in particular was the San Carlos Apaches in Arizona. The Voting Rights Act has a requirement that certain parts of the country provide language access and elections and voting to people who are limited in their profession. San Carlos Apaches had a significant number of people who were LEP, but they'd never received any language assistance, and I took a pretty aggressive posture with the counties that encompass the reservation and the state as far as providing language access. But the memory that I have is standing in the doorway of a community center with a tribal chairwoman. This was on a day that, for the first time, the two counties that make up the reservation provided language access for people to register to vote. Never happened before registering to vote in Apache with people who speak Apache, and when the tribal chairwoman and I were standing outside the door, she said oh my God, look at that.
Speaker 2:There were five women who were tribal elders, who had lived on the reservation basically all of their lives let's say they were in their 80s They've never voted, they've never been registered to vote. She said, oh my God. She ran to them and she hugged them. She said they're here for one reason because for the first time in their lives there are people who speak Apache, who can answer their questions, make them feel comfortable as the county workers explain the registration process and voting. That happened several years ago. I will never forget it. I remember the tears streaming down the face of the chairwoman and the tribal elders. It was a very emotional, very also satisfying moment, I think, as you said, to think of something that really cements my direction. That's a pretty good example of something that I was responsible for doing that really showed that, wow, this language stuff really makes a difference. These people they're 80 years old, they've never voted ever in this state and now they're voting for the first time.
Speaker 1:Wow, that definitely gave me chills. Yeah, absolutely. What a beautiful story. I think that for many of us that do the work of being the conduit and providing that specific service, we don't necessarily always get to see it manifesting in physical form. Language access, I mean, right, what that does necessarily, because we're so involved, we're not looking at it from that angle. Sometimes we do disconnect to the point where, once the assignment is over, we are done. So we don't necessarily get to that moment of maybe right, there's moments where I'm sure there are interpreters that understand that they've made that connection. But that moment in itself where you can actually see what language access truly is and what it can do for not just one individual but groups of individuals, that's such a powerful story.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thanks for sharing that with us. No, absolutely. I feel like we're going to definitely get into our main topic, but I want to go back still a little bit further with your story and try to get into potentially how one focuses law with language access. What is that? Those interconnected I don't know maybe areas of study where potentially, if someone is listening and would be interested in doing something as specific as that sort of, guide us through what that looks like or what that looked like for you and how you ended up so involved with this very specific topic.
Speaker 2:I think that having an understanding of language and speaking different languages which, as you know, also means that you understand the cultures of the languages that you're studying you have a relationship with the people, in some relationship with history, you're just understanding not only the differences among languages but also the history of how this particular language can and it's used in this country, for example how it can empower people, enable people to have an equitable access to the privileges that people have to live in this country. I think that that was a big thing for me, that I can't say that I would have had the same career arc if I hadn't been so enmeshed in language throughout all four years of college. That had a tremendous impact on me and I remember the studying in college very well the sequential French, german and Arabic each day when I was a junior. Big impact. I learned an awful lot and it really gave me this awareness of where people are coming from and then also being able to connect that to law and the legal requirements and obligations that, when they are enforced, do create that equitable, even playing field for people regardless of language. So I think that's all connected.
Speaker 2:I can't say that if I hadn't studied language, I'd be doing exactly the same thing that I'm doing now, but that has informed the last 20 plus years of my legal career that that started with my first trip to the Navajo Nation in Arizona 23 years ago and understanding language and understanding the cultural aspects.
Speaker 2:I have to say that after we were talking about what my own origin story is, my Navajo friends eventually complimented me for having trying to speak Navajo at the time that I could speak a little bit of Navajo, but they always got a kick out of the fact that Bruce, the only person we've ever met who speaks Navajo with a Bronx accent. I took a lot of pride in that at the time. I still do. When I get together, either in person or over the phone, with my friends, if they will offer a mind, then Bruce, you still speak Navajo with a Bronx accent. So that was also that was transferable. Yeah, really that's right. That was a tremendously enriching and awarding experience that I've been doing working in the same space since that first trip 23 years ago.
Speaker 1:Phenomenal. I love that. I love that so much. Now you briefly mentioned that your work with the DOJ. Talk to us a little bit about, first and foremost, what DOJ stands for, because I was quite taken aback by many individuals working in this industry that don't know DOJ or OCR.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great point. The DOJ is the Department of Justice of the United States. The Department of Justice is the only federal agency that can represent the United States of America in courtrooms. So if any federal agency wants to bring a lawsuit is defending a lawsuit. They are represented by lawyers from the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice has tremendous jurisdiction and reach in American society. Among its charges is enforcing our many non-discrimination laws, whether it's the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act of 1964. All of these laws have very specific excuse me, language, access components and requirements. So DOJ takes the lead in enforcing, interpreting, explaining to federal agencies what the law says and what these agency's obligations are. So that was, frankly, that was somewhat of a revelation for me. Although I understood what DOJ was, I guess I didn't really understand or appreciate the breadth of the. I think it's 50,000 lawyers working for the Department of Justice.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I know that just stunned me when I started there, but it was a great learning to realize from the inside what DOJ can do, how DOJ can change things and how the voice of DOJ can have significant influence coast to coast.
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, that's amazing. I, that's definitely a fact. I didn't know. That's a lot of legal representation, yeah, especially for you know, just the US. But I think, specifically for topics such as this, does DOJ and OCR work together somehow?
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do, and with the first step would be, if OCR has any questions or uncertainty about what the law says or what their mandate is, they talk to DOJ.
Speaker 2:If DOJ has any questions about what OCR is doing as far as enforcement priorities, doj will tell them. Ocr has the Office for Civil Rights of the Department of Health and Human Services, has its own brief, has its own jurisdiction to enforce healthcare civil rights laws, which they which they do and they're doing increasingly in the Biden administration. Sometimes DOJ partners with OCR in specific cases. But if you look at it as like a flow chart, doj is at the top as far. As this is the agency that tells you what the law says. This is the agency that represents you in court, and then you have the OCRs the Department of Transportation, department of Education, hhs that follow DOJ guidance. There are internal meetings with DOJ typically chairs where different agencies talk about the legal requirements and how they're enforcing them. So I think the flow chart model works. Each agency has some level of independence and autonomy, but DOJ sits at the top. If there are any issues or problems, then DOJ will intervene.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you. You just mentioned the fact that DOJ and OCR do have worked in the past before on specific things, and I believe one of those things, if I'm not mistaken, is actually a document that is pushed out, or was pushed out by both DOJ and OCR, if I'm not mistaken and I think it's one that talks about how to work efficiently Now, don't quote me on the title, but with LEP families or something of the sort, and I believe it's both of them together, that at least that's their logos on the document. So his strength in numbers.
Speaker 2:But that's a great point and you're exactly right. They put out which I thought was a pretty good guidance a few years ago about working with LEP families. Doj has done something similar with the Department of Education. Some guidance documents, just like anything, are better than others. Some guidance documents are written more clearly so that all people can understand. But I remember that guidance and I thought that that was pretty good.
Speaker 2:In explaining from a community angle, from a family angle, from a, this is how you communicate with, in the public school context, parents or guardian. Now we're dealing for the most part, as we know, with minors. Minors don't have the legal right to make decisions on their own, to sign documents, to commit to anything. So if they have LEP parents or guardians, they must be brought in to the conversation to give various permissions or consent. But also, as a parent, you want to know what's happening with your child's education. Certainly if I were LEP no-transcript, the public school where my children attend would explain oh, we're going to do this, this and this, but I don't know that. I would be unhappy that I'm not involved in my child's education and certainly not involved as far as giving permission or consent for certain things. That Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Actually, this is a great segue into the topic or the theme of today's conversation, even though it's already been great stuff that we've touched on. But let's get into the topic of language access and we're specifically going to try to delve into, make that connection into public schools, which my heart is right now in this specific specialty area only because I feel like there's so much guidance needed and guidance by individuals that understand the topic and that understand the language and the language topic and then both of them bringing those two topics together. Because I say that because there are individuals and I'm generalizing here that understand maybe the basics of language access but don't necessarily have that background in languages to make that true connection with meaningful and equitable and those words that we often hear. So I want us to kind of get into that conversation and really try to delve into, try to make that connection back into public education. Let's begin first, bruce, if you will, by helping us to define or break down what language access is. What is that?
Speaker 2:We look at our conversation, we're having a conversation in English. So imagine if we didn't speak English or understand English, then a conversation in English would just be beyond our level of comprehension. I think that's particularly acute in many situations, but among them is public schools, because you're dealing with young children five, six, seven, eight, nine, 13, they're miners. So they're in school to be educated and the parents or guardians expect them to have a certain level of education. However, if the parents don't speak English and the schools are not providing that language access that you mentioned, then there is no access. It's non-existent. It's not a question of meaningful access, good access, bad access, there's no access. So I think that if people sometimes put themselves in the shoes of others and imagine that you're in a parent-teacher conference and think well, what if this were happening to a family that speaks Pickle language, any language other than English, this would go completely differently in the sense that the parent or guardian would have some level of, at some point, frustration, disappointment perhaps, that they're not really understanding all the things that are happening with their children. And I would point to I did a program a few years ago for community colleges and public school administrators in Texas I think it was in Harris County about this very topic and many of the people in the audience basically said whoa, this is like the first time we're hearing about this, don't know anything about it, which is quite astounding since, as you know, these laws have been in place for a long, long time. And there is that additional imperative You're working with children.
Speaker 2:So if you're sitting down in a meeting with a child, let's say, a 10-year-old child, whose parent or guardian does not speak English, and you're communicating with the parent or guardian through the child, obviously just without knowing what the law says, you know that 10-year-old kids are not going to tell their parents everything that's happening, particularly if, please tell your mom that you got an F on this test and we need to do X, y and Z to help you understand the material in a different way.
Speaker 2:Well, mom, the teacher said I got a C plus on this test and I'm doing really well, but so there's not that much work that we have to do and that's documented. It's not like you know, that's pure fantasy that I'm just creating out of whole cloth. So, thinking, put yourself in the shoes of other people, and in this case, the linguistic shoes, if you will people who do not have the English language ability to have any type of instructive conversation with their child's public school teachers, guidance counselors or administrators, and I think this is one of the biggest areas of need when it comes to language, if for no other reason, because we're talking about children and we're talking about minors whose parents, who are LEP, desperately need the information to be conveyed to them in a way they understand.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Now, if I get into the shoes of potentially an administrator, a school administrator, a district administrator that has never heard of this language access topic and has never heard of laws about language access, I would say OK, but I hire bilingual staff so that they can support the community that we serve. Is that sufficient?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that we both are the answer to that. But, kind of leading up to that, I think it's great that schools hire bilingual people who can ostensibly speak more than one language Fantastic. However, aside from what the law says about making sure that they are actually proficient in the languages that they speak, do you really want to take the chance that if you're having a conference about, let's say, a disciplinary situation where you're explaining about some serious incident in school and you have a staff member who's doing interpreting but they get it wrong and there is some type of calamitous situation that results from that, just think about how that all could easily have been avoided with some little common sense leveraged in there. That, ok, bruce, you say you speak Polish. Ok, well, we need to make sure that you're Polish, is proficient enough to handle these topics, and that you know educational terminology. You know what an IEP is for students with disabilities, so all of that is part of it. It's not enough.
Speaker 2:I could say that, yeah, I speak French, for example, and I'm pretty good in French. I'm proficient, yeah, I can handle a lot of these conversations. Oh, wow, okay, we really need you to do this. But I also know I don't know how to say IEP in French. There are other, of course. There are other terminology, I know I don't know educational terminology in French, so you got to be sure that I know what I'm talking about. As we know, language is more than just ordering dinner in a restaurant. We're asking directions on a street corner. When you're talking about language at this level, there is a need and a requirement for mastery of these terms so that when you're having these conversations with parents or guardians, that you actually know the words that inform of the educational topic.
Speaker 1:The Orange County Department of Education is proud to host their seventh annual Interpreters and Translators Conference September 29th and 30th at the Hilton Orange County Costa Mesa in Costa Mesa, california. This conference promotes the incredible work of interpreters and translators, bilingual persons and staff tasked with providing language access in schools and in the community. Know your path. Each step matters. To ensure language access is this year's theme and main focus. Conference sessions and engagements will respond to the core belief that language access is a foundational part of an inclusive and culturally responsive educational ecosystem. Participants will delve into unique opportunities to acquire and refine their skills, learn tips and strategies to enhance their professional practices, keep up to date with the latest trends, laws and expectations, and explore the use of diverse platforms and tools that can streamline their language service efforts. Language access is a priority in public education and, as interpreters and translators working in the K-12 system are more visible than ever, becoming a substantial part of every educational encounter, it is imperative to professionalize the field through continuous improvement, training, growth and networking. The Orange County Department of Education Language Services team is at the forefront of providing these professional learning opportunities and experiences for its interpreters, translators, bilingual staff, school administrators and community liaisons, and is committed to communicating across cultures, to provide meaningful language access to their families, students and the communities they serve. Join them this fall at the 2023 Interpreters and Translators Conference to continue your professional learning and networking. Registration is now open. So head on over to the episode notes to find out more about the Interpreters and Translators Conference hosted by the Orange County Department of Education's Language Services Division, taking place September 29th and 30th. Hope to see you there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I feel that this is the moment or the topic in which many of our leadership or just school staff in general, particularly those that may not speak another language, that don't understand that there are different levels as well to the knowledge and specialty areas and terms and things like that. I feel like this is where, exactly where there is a disconnect with meaningful, appropriate language access absolutely the bilingual piece to be able to to service those communities. But then there is the different levels potentially, and I feel like that's how, eventually, these guiding documents that you referred to initially in our conversation ended up being created, right, so that there was sort of an explanation of okay, so this is like maybe basic level, but then this is where we need to be for this particular meeting. So for those that maybe don't know what we're referring to, would you sort of explain to us a little bit about what these guiding documents are, where they can be found potentially and what they do for, you know, maybe public schools.
Speaker 2:Sure, well, let's talk about where they can be found. First, you can go to lepgov, which is a website that is administered by the Department of Justice that has a lot of really good information about language access, what it means, this proficiency, that we're talking about, the rules that apply to different entities, like hospitals and elementary schools, for example. So that's a place to start. The Department of Education and Department of Justice have information on their websites that pertain to education and to language access overall. Now, admittedly, it can be like dizzyingly confusing to confront the websites. Oh my God.
Speaker 1:Wow yeah that's right.
Speaker 2:Wow, how do I? What does all this mean? But you can still narrow it down. I think it's better to go to lepgov and do a Google search about what does language access mean?
Speaker 1:True, but the way.
Speaker 2:Maria. All of this could be simplified in the sense that if people just think about what would I need to understand if my child is having a parent-teacher conference and I attend, but I don't speak English, what would I expect? What would I need to experience and the terms that are used, like the individualized education program, for example, the IEP, and there are a lot of other similar words and terminologies. But then that also leads me into an area that I get asked that constantly. So then you're at a conference like this and then someone brings out a tablet oh, I'll use Google Translate, so we'll type in some things and oh, yeah here's the translation and while Google Translate can translate basically, hi, how are you, I'm fine, and that's going to be pretty accurate the vast majority of the time.
Speaker 2:It can explain what an IEP means and it's not going to get into an accurate depiction of all of the aspects of what goes into a meaningful parent-teacher conference dialogue. So that's another aspect of this. No, you can't use Google Translate, you can only use it. The Department of Education says this and the Department of Justice.
Speaker 2:You can only use it if a qualified human translator checks off. Oh yes, this is accurate, you can use that. Now, the odds of that happening in a parent-teacher conference are almost non-existent that you're going to have someone sitting there. Who, oh Bruce, can you review the Google Translate before I show it to Mr and Mrs Smith, that's not going to happen Right, and as you know that often there isn't even an interpreter or translator there anyway.
Speaker 2:So Google Translate is the nice, easy, sexy, technologically smart, apparently, way to deal with language. You know I have doctors who take out their iPhones. Oh yeah, okay, cancer means this. No, no, you can't do it. It's not accurate enough. If there will come a time where its accuracy is much different than it is today, but it's today. We're not there yet and until we're there, using it is you just can't do it. Because, also, if you think about it, you know, if we have our own children in a situation where something is being explained to us through Google Translate, let's say and it's wrong, it's incorrect, then we're not going to understand what is happening to our children in the classroom. To me, that is absolutely inexcusable and something that if, when I've heard about it, I always have a very strong reaction. I'll tell you something else that we didn't talk about earlier.
Speaker 2:When my son was in high school, I was the PTA president and we have a fair number of LEP people in our community, particularly from Asia.
Speaker 2:The school really didn't regularly use interpreters, whether over video or in person, to interpret interactions between parents, guardians, teachers and children, and when I brought this up, you know, first of all the parents were stunned.
Speaker 2:They have to do this really, because they never do it. And we had one. We had a PTA meeting where we had a Chinese language interpreter who was explaining some aspects of the educational ins and outs of parent-teacher conferences and the parents were like oh whoa, this is never heard, this I've already had two children go through the school system here. We never had any of this. So, as you've said today and in your other podcast, that the educational aspect, the instructional aspect of language access and education setting is paramount because often the administrators just don't know. They don't know what they do after they do know is another question. But generally I think interpreters are used much less frequently in public schools than they are in hospitals, for example, or in courtrooms. I think that that's the fault generally of school districts who, for whatever reason, are just not as aware of the legal requirements but also, frankly, just the basic logical extensions of having conversations with people who come from different countries.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, it's just this lack of understanding. But you just hit a really key point as well is. But what do they do once they do know? Here's the thing they encounter this topic language access, which seems like, oh okay, it's bilingual staff supporting. Well, no, you need qualified, trained interpreters. Oh okay, so then let's change it up a bit and let's hire people that maybe have some training.
Speaker 1:Then it's like, well, it's not that easy. You have to create some policies and procedures here, because this should be standard across the board and we should identify which types of meetings, and blah, blah, blah. Then it's like, okay, this became a monster. I thought maybe all we needed is bring in some training and train our bilingual staff and we'd be all done. Or maybe hire a person that has that qualification and we're all done. Suddenly, you see potentially administrators saying thanks, but no thanks. I don't want to get into this topic by myself because, in essence, what ends up happening is you have maybe one department administrator responsible for such a huge monster of a topic and then they want to bury it, sweep it under the rug and say I think we're okay as long as there's no LCR complaint. So we're okay, no one's complaining, we're okay.
Speaker 2:Well, sadly, you're right. I've had school administrators tell me that well, this isn't a problem because no one's complaining. My response was well, do you tell people they have the right to complain if they feel they're being discriminated against?
Speaker 2:Oh no we don't do that, Well then how would people what you're required to do then? How would people know they could complain? We never really thought of it like that. So, yeah, I mean, you can keep going around and going around, and I think what's also true too is there's a big need for parental knowledge and then parental commitment to advocacy, which I've long championed in education.
Speaker 2:That you know, if you're going to advocate for nothing else in your life, you should at least advocate for your children who, if they're minors, need it the most, certainly pre-high school.
Speaker 2:It's really important in being involved in their education. But knowing what's happening, so that you can raise your hand in these meetings and ask these questions oh well, how come we didn't get this information in Dutch, for example? So, yeah, I've talked to a lot of parents and parent groups about the absolute primacy of advocacy and involvement in their children's education. And sometimes then you have those meetings with the school administrators where you get to that kind of tipping point where, if the parent is actively involved, they can say look, this is not optional for you, this is not a choice. This involves our children and our being able to interact with them, with you, in a way that we understand that's not happening right now and that's going to stop. I understand that that's difficult for many people to do, but I think in the education context, the way I look at it is that's what parents should be doing as part of the normal course of being parents with children in school.
Speaker 1:You mentioned in one of your conversations at the LEO conference I believe it was this most recent one, Bruce differentiating or understanding this notion of federally funded organizations, and you sort of specified the federally funded portion. Would you sort of give us an idea of what that means for public education or public schools? Federal funding, Sure, I think too right, I think some private schools also.
Speaker 2:You're right. I mean there are some private schools that get specific federal grants. Virtually all public schools are federally funded. Either the federal money goes to the state or the county, which then distributes the money to the schools. The laws that we're talking about, that relate to language access in schools, all have this basis in federal funding. Federal funding can be a direct grant, federal funding can be lots of different things, but it all comes down, of course, to money. So once the money flows from Washington to the state, to the county, to the school, then the school is then required to provide language assistance to people who are living in English proficient and in the school context. In a way that's easy because that applies to the parents or the guardians. And the same is true as you suggested with private schools.
Speaker 2:But you first, you follow the money. You have to first ascertain that they receive federal funds. In a public school situation, virtually all public schools get federal funding. I've never encountered a public school district that did not. So you can accurately assume that your public school district receives federal funds. Private schools they have to receive some specific grant. Many do, but certainly not all of them. So getting that information too is important. You'd be surprised how much stuff you can find with some cleverly phrased Google searches and determined that, oh, the XYZ private school that's down the street. Oh, they just got this $10,000 grant from NASA or from some other federal agency. Oh, so then they have to provide language assistance.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do.
Speaker 1:It should be public information in terms of where the money is coming from, but the information can be so difficult, like you just said, so difficult to find and convoluted and unless you understand what you're reading, these documents can be so difficult for the average person trying to identify where the money is coming from. I think, like you said, in public schools, a lot of the conversations when they talk about the piece of budgets during the board meetings, especially now with something here in California at least, that's called local control accountability plan, that LCAP really breaks down where this money is coming from or it's going and things like that. But, of course, understanding this as individuals ourselves that are providing this service in public education, it really gives us this context and this understanding of yes, it applies to even us here at this school. The sad part about it is that many of us and I include myself in it is because we were having these conversations ourselves, trying to and I'm using my hand here as from the bottom up really trying to give this information to our administrators and sharing, like, actually, this is the law. We're supposed to be doing this. This isn't.
Speaker 1:Oh, one of your interpreters had an idea about how to create language access policies and procedures in our school district.
Speaker 1:I don't know why we have plenty of bilingual staff, but she has this crazy idea and it's like no, actually it's federal law that's created these guiding documents for us.
Speaker 1:So it's a very difficult conversation to have when you're basically a solo individual, and I've heard of many people that are working for school districts that have been hired as the trained interpreter or translator or both, and that's about it. They're like box checked off, and then the interpreter translator is like well, there's actually a lot of more things that we need to create than I need help with, so it's just such a big topic for one person to take on and discuss these items with. So we have to be realistic, though, and really come to the conclusion that, at this day and age, that is exactly what we have, though, in public schools Are single individuals, or maybe the team of interpreters and translators, doing this work. What is your recommendation, as someone that has been doing this for so many years and continues to guide entities, organizations on this topic? What is your recommendation for these people that feel like they're drowning in this topic and they're getting nowhere with school officials?
Speaker 2:If they're school employees, then being able to approach whoever it is in the school hierarchy and maybe more than one person, with the guidance document that you mentioned. Hey, look what I just found online. We don't do this and according to the census, the limited English proficient population of our county is, let's say, 30%. So we have a lot of parents here who don't understand the information we put out. We should address that essentially. Sometimes people will be receptive to that, some people, sometimes they won't be receptive to that, and I live in Montgomery County, maryland, which borders DC Across the river. In Virginia there are Fairfax County, city of Alexandria and Arlington County that have significant LEP populations. I believe DOJ did an enforcement in one of those jurisdictions based on language, that the district was not providing language access, with the focus being on parents of children with disabilities who were LEP the parents. So they did an enforcement and came up with a consent agreement where hey guess what You're going to have to hire people who are fluent, proficient in the target language and also in terminology. So those agreements are not as commonplace as they are, let's say, in health care, for example, but there's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes that is not public, where, depending on the administration, the message is being very clearly given this is what we expect you to do, we give you money and the consequence of that is these are the rules you need to follow. So the agreement across the river in northern Virginia was pretty comprehensive and really addressed many of the things that we're talking about. But it's the same as in many different situations in life Sometimes people will be interested in what you have to say.
Speaker 2:Sometimes people won't give a blank what you have to say and OK, well then, what do you do? And, as you know, I'm a big advocacy person. I'm a big believer in the rights that we have don't exist unless we use them. Now, not everybody knows what the rights are, and I understand that that's a challenge too. But I would challenge folks, particularly in the education setting, that we're dealing with children and, as parents or guardians, we need to be involved with what's happening in our kids' schools.
Speaker 2:Conversely, the school districts, the teachers, the administrators if I'm a teacher and I'm sitting in a conference with a 12-year-old and a parent who doesn't speak English, you would think that something would click in my head that, wait a minute. He's not speaking English, so how he can't understand what I'm saying. You would think that, I would like to think that there are teachers who actively feel that way, but sometimes it's a matter of going to the board of education and even going to individual members of the school board and telling them you get $5 million a year for the federal government. You are required to provide X. You don't do that and we have a large LEP population who speaks Tagalog, who speaks Spanish, who speak Italian, but we're not addressing that and we need to. So sometimes you can get a larger conversation going just by doing it that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true. Well, finding the door to the conversation could potentially pique some interest. At least, that's always the intention, right? Oh, yes, good point. Make sure that we pique an interest, not always necessarily the case. Now, with the few minutes that we have left with you, Bruce, I wanna talk a little bit about how individuals can get more information or potentially even find ways to stop or to avoid the use of technology such as AI in an area where language access appropriate hasn't even yet been established and people are starting to see the use of the takeover of AI to provide language services. What can we do here, if anything?
Speaker 2:That's a great point.
Speaker 2:There's a recent study I forgot which university that said that the use of AI could actually cement and make permanent discrimination and inequity, in whatever field, because, since AI is developed by human beings and human beings have their own biases and their own different levels of tolerance and understanding, if certain procedures, prudence and due diligence are not used in the creation of AI and the use of AI, then I agree with that conclusion that the inequities will become cemented because they will become even more road and routine than they are today, and there have been various stories and accounts about even chat.
Speaker 2:Gpt itself has a monetary warnings. Basically, don't rely on this exclusively. We're just a machine and what we're saying may not be completely accurate. But I was surprised at one of the things that I had fooled around with on chat GPT recently where they had this paragraph actually about Google Translate, saying that Google Translate is not completely accurate. I was very impressed that it said that, but we have to be aware of yeah, there's an allure of trying any new thing, particularly talking to your computer and your computer or using the keyboard or the computer answers you.
Speaker 1:Especially if it's free and fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go, even more so. But for schools or hospitals, police departments, to rely exclusively on AI is bad news and it will absolutely result in problems and issues and, as the study said, will actually make permanent the biases and intolerances that are inherent in all of us as human beings and in the technologies that we create, that we won't be able to change. That so that essentially, you can take, extrapolate that into the science fiction stories of history, so that the machines, the technologies that we create, instead of reflecting the best, better part of ourselves, reflect the worst part, and they are making permanent, because our reliance on them will increase, these biases, these inequities, that, from the language standpoint, why do we?
Speaker 2:need to have an interpreter, we just use the technology. But the technology is inherently biased unless that's being controlled for, and right now is just not accurate enough to rely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like if we've not yet gotten to a place as an entity that really understands the meaning of providing meaningful and appropriate services in a language that our multilingual families understand, if we haven't yet gotten to that very specific conclusion, stay away from AI to provide these services, because you're only gonna dig yourself into a deeper whole, I feel, when eventually it all comes tumbling down, If it ever does right.
Speaker 1:I think it, like you mentioned, there has to be this alignment of individuals that understand what their rights are, understand how to submit a complaint if it's needed to be submitted before anything like that can happen. But I think that if these organizations, having yet gotten to the point where they're clear as to what language access is that is meaningful, that is appropriate to their multilingual families, they have no business bringing in AI, because AI is all gonna make it worse for them. Superficially, it may not seem like it, but I think that those internal components of what creates well-established systems for families in public education, I mean yeah, stay clear from it. I mean it's easier said than done, of course, because I just mentioned earlier, it's free, it's fast and right now they're thinking it's getting the job done. So I'm sure there's many schools out there. Sadly, that is exactly what they're doing, right?
Speaker 2:I think you're right, but one of the things that I like to use to accentuate points is stories. So I'm gonna tell a quick story about something that happened very recently in New York City, where a lawyer in a court case used chat GPT to research a particular legal issue, and chat GPT actually invented, made up fabricated quotes and court cases that do not exist. They don't exist at all. The lawyer relied on this, made up information in a court case and got caught by the judge, who was not very happy about this. So the lawyer's career has likely been dramatically affected badly because he didn't use that prudence that we talked about earlier.
Speaker 2:Imagine something like that happening in any field in a hospital room, in a classroom, in a guidance counselor's office, in a jail cell, anything, anything in a courtroom doing the same thing where you rely on AI, and AI, which has essentially a mind of its own, makes things up and I'm not saying exaggerates literally made things up, created things out of nothing and presented them as if they were true, when they were not.
Speaker 2:The fact that this terrible thing happened to this lawyer is far from unique. You can find something like that happening in any area, any situation, because you're using AI more than you should. You're too attracted to the gloss and the glamour and you're not using just the prudence that we all use. I mean, imagine if you're driving a car, you're probably not just looking at your iPhone exclusively, as you're driving 60 miles an hour and playing with it, you're probably not doing that. But if you do that, if your attention is riveted 100% on your iPhone, something awful is going to happen. It's the same thing with what happened to the lawyer. The difference is only in degree, but the circumstance will be repeated over and over and over again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that analogy. That oversight is super important. Even for the self-driving vehicles that are out there, it still gives you that warning. You still have to be alert. And then there's those individuals that, of course, are not right. They take total advantage of that, but hands still have to be on the steering wheel. You still have to be monitoring. Someone has to have that oversight, and hopefully it's someone that knows what they're doing and what they should they need to take over right, exactly exactly.
Speaker 1:Wow, Bruce, this has been such a great conversation. I knew that we would be learning so much and I just want to mention or ask a couple of things before we sign off. First and foremost, I know that this is such a huge topic and that this conversation always allows for deeper conversations, deeper topics that we could attach to Language Access. But if you could give our audience recommendations on anything that has to do with this particular topic many of those that listen to us are community interpreters or work in that area, in which they're potentially coordinators of Language Access Services what recommendations could you share with our audience today?
Speaker 2:I think, get educated and learn more about whether it's AI or the Language Access rights of parents and guardians in public schools. Listen to informative podcasts like the ones that you do and just put together. Put out good information that people can rely on and study Study in the sense of read that article that you see online, look at that email. Go to conferences where they may talk about these issues. Get informed and get educated. That's the basis of advocacy and that's also the basis for understanding more about the world that we live in, the challenges and the obstacles that you may need to overcome so that you're not being treated differently and your children are not being treated differently because of how they look, how they sound and where they're from. And that's a bedrock aspect of living in the United States and a bedrock aspect in the laws that have been around for a long, long time to protect us from being treated differently in a bad way because of how we look, where we're from, how we talk and the color of our skin.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Where can our audience find out more about you and the work that you do?
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. I think I do a lot of posting on LinkedIn, so LinkedIn is always a good place to go. You could just put in my name in the search and you can look at my page and follow me and read my postings, and I'm planning to come up with some more In the near future. I try to post a lot of information about what the Feds are doing If there's an agreement with the public school, for example, something about the jurisdiction in Virginia that I mentioned. I try to put that out too, and I'm also always very happy to hear from people, answer questions and help guide them through the sometimes confusing morass of the information that's out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, most definitely. Linkedin is the place to go. People, I am telling you and I know I'll make sure to include that link for Bruce's profile in the episode notes and in addition to the LEPgov resource that he gave to us today, and take that page one bite at a time, because it can definitely overwhelm, but there is indeed a lot of resources that can be found on this one web page. Bruce, it has been a great conversation today. I thank you once again for the opportunity to have this one-on-one and for sharing your story with this particular audience. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, mariah. As I said, it's always a pleasure to see you. I'm a big fan of your podcast, so it is an absolute pleasure to be able to join you today.
